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C4 - DS4 Owners :: Forums :: Coupe and Hatch Pre 2011 cars :: C4 The Garage

C4 1.6 HDi clutch replacement

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Zedd   
Mon Aug 13 2012, 09:28am
Member No: #19214
Joined: Apr 11 2011
Location: Harties South Africa
gmerry wrote ...

Zedd, hi.

The friction plate doesn't need any springs because the torsional decoupling (between gearbox and engine) happens in the DMF rather than in thedriven plate itself.

Looks as though your clutch "failure" had the release bearing as the initiating event, rather than wear of the clutch plate itself.

The release bearing is mostly plastic, no thermal capacity whatsover. Not a good car to learn to drive on!!!.

Anyway you have obviously made a good start. Hopefully no problems with the gear shift cables.

Regards
G



Yep your response helped on the cables, without that I would have battled as well.
Once again you have been a great help.

KR

Z
Zedd   
Tue Aug 14 2012, 01:55am
Member No: #19214
Joined: Apr 11 2011
Location: Harties South Africa
Good day all,
Has anyone the exact dimensions of the thrust bearing, I was wondering if it could be replaced with another metal one?
If that is the weak point in the clutch design. Especially for those that do some towing, I think a modification could be beneficial.

Kind regards

Z
gmerry   
Wed Aug 15 2012, 04:32am
Member No: #11625
Joined: Nov 30 2009
Location: aberdeen
Zedd, I asked myself the same question. The only "upgrade" I could find was a heavy duty ZF-Sachs clutch kit. Price was about 3 times the cost of a regular Sachs clutch kit. I was interested because I was towing a "light" boat and trailer and the upgraded clutch was recommended for towing duties
- Click Here -


In the end I stuck with the standard OEM setup. Just treat the clutch pedal with a lot of respect!!
Regards
1 User said Thank You to gmerry for this Post :
 Zedd (15 Aug 2012 : 06:27)
gmerry   
Thu Aug 16 2012, 09:41am
Member No: #11625
Joined: Nov 30 2009
Location: aberdeen
Zedd here are some part numbers that might help you.

Sachs 3151994301, Valeo VKC2523, LuK 500092411/500092410 Breda Lorett CR1263.

As usual, watch out for fakes and cheap Chinese imitations.

Since these bearings are used in loads of PSA amd Fiat vehicles, including much heavier variants that the C4 hatchback, the release bearings must be up to the job. maybe we were both just unlucky to have one failed.

In any case, did you manage to get a RSA supplier for a clutch kit and presumably also a new Dual Mass Flywheel. In the UK, the best price I could find was £226.76 excluding VAT from Brakes International. That's for a genuine Sachs unit.

Regards
G
1 User said Thank You to gmerry for this Post :
 Zedd (17 Aug 2012 : 11:17)
Zedd   
Fri Aug 17 2012, 12:24pm
Member No: #19214
Joined: Apr 11 2011
Location: Harties South Africa
Hi Gmerry, thanks for the part numbers. I'll check them out.

Where I stand now is, got a price for Fly wheel and clutch kit, from the Citroen dealer in South Africa. Converted £805.00, from this you can see how we suffer here when it comes to transport.

New car prices and spares as well. Vehicles are driven here, some up to 40 years of age, as daily transport.

Our local brake and clutch re-conditioners normally supply the clutch kits as well at about 66% of the price that a Citroen dealer would charge but none of them supply the DMF.
Unfortunately I couldn't find any with stock of the clutch kits, all are on order.

I did some research and found some DMF resurfacing companies, but they were all in America.
After trying to get someone to machine the DMF for me, (no one wants to touch it here in SA), I nearly gave up when I contacted my engineering works, (someone that repairs/machines all my engine components for some years now) and he connected me with a company that has been experimenting with resurfacing the DMF, so far they haven't done Citroen, but on the Audi, VW and Merc they have had 100% success.
I decided to go this route and handed in my DMF to them and be a guinea pig, after all, what really do I have to lose.

If unsuccessful or successful I will post findings etc. For future viewers to this site or other enthusiasts.

The funniest thing is, if they get the machining or resurfacing right, it only cost, converted £13. -- free in my opinion.

I apologise for the long post,

Kind regards

Zedd
Dave_Retired.   
Fri Aug 17 2012, 12:44pm

Member No: #1
Joined: Aug 07 2006
Location: Northumberland
No need to apologise, if they manage to machine the old DMF and get it re usable it's a great starting point for everyone else in the future.
gmerry   
Thu Sep 20 2012, 04:00am
Member No: #11625
Joined: Nov 30 2009
Location: aberdeen
Hi Zedd, is your car all back together now with new clutch and machined up DMF?

As you would be the first to post on a sucessful repair of a DMF, are there any photos and tips you wish to share.

Regards
G
Zedd   
Thu Sep 20 2012, 08:41am
Member No: #19214
Joined: Apr 11 2011
Location: Harties South Africa
Hello everyone.

Here is an update, on the clutch replacement so far.
After looking around and trying to interchange parts with other models I finally gave up, just too many variables, so ordered the genuine stuff for my Vin number, the delivery was only yesterday. I intend to continue work this weekend. (long weekend)
The reason for my disappearance from the forum, I decided to go and do some scuba diving for 2 weeks.

In the meantime I have also reconditioned the starter as was planned due to the difficulty of its access and I'm glad I did, as you will see in the notes on the solenoid.

Here is the tutorial or guide for DIY starter recondition.

Remove starter, Its easy when engine or gearbox is out the way!






Place starter in vice and remove Power cable to solenoid and starter assembly and solenoid assembly bolts.








Remove the rear housing of the starter assembly to expose the brush holder.






Be very careful of the next step, when splitting the field windings with the brush assembly from the front casing and off the armature segments.
Cover the springs during the splitting process with your hand to prevent them from jumping out and disappearing. They tend to shoot out all over the place.

After all this comes apart you should have parts as in pic below.






Remove the gear cover plate to expose the starter gearbox.









Pull out the pinion, solenoid plunger and gear assembly out of the front starter housing.









I found all the grease to be very dry so using a solvent, paraffin, diesel, petrol etc, clean all parts and have a beer.






Now for the armature, the copper segments become blocked in time with carbon from the brushes and other dirt causing the windings to become partially shorted. It is necessary to clean the segments and scrape the dirt out from in between them.
I use a drill press and water paper to polish the armature segments and then scrape in between them with a hack saw blade, the hack saw blade is a perfect fit. Failure to do this step will result in an inefficient starter.










Now for the solenoid, in my opinion, buy a new one!
In the past these were serviceable but today its a sealed unit, I have pried my old one open to demonstrate deterioration. I think it might have lasted another month or two before ceasing.
The contact in the pic has been burnt to approximately .5mm thick.










The starter has roller bearings instead of solid bushes, so it might not be necessary to replace these, if they are damaged, they will need replacement. Just check for "pitting" and fit armature into bearings checking for play. I just cleaned mine and re-greased with multi purpose grease.








Re-grease gearbox and assemble the starter which is the reversal of disassembly.
Check brushes for wear and replace if necessary.
Carefully reinsert brush springs, taking care not to "shoot" them out.







If you were successful you should end up like this!






Cheers

Zedd
5 User said Thank You to Zedd for this Post :
 Dave_Retired. (20 Sep 2012 : 10:42) , BernieRubble (20 Sep 2012 : 15:16) , PentlandC4 (20 Sep 2012 : 15:35) , Ballistic (21 Sep 2012 : 07:42) , gmerry (21 Sep 2012 : 16:03)
Dave_Retired.   
Thu Sep 20 2012, 10:44am

Member No: #1
Joined: Aug 07 2006
Location: Northumberland
Great tutorial Zedd I have written it to a .pdf and made it available to download here: - Click Here -
Zedd   
Thu Sep 20 2012, 11:34am
Member No: #19214
Joined: Apr 11 2011
Location: Harties South Africa
gmerry wrote ...

Hi Zedd, is your car all back together now with new clutch and machined up DMF?

As you would be the first to post on a sucessful repair of a DMF, are there any photos and tips you wish to share.

Regards
G



Hi again everyone, further update!

I managed to get the gearbox out without removing the front of the car, aircon etc. I managed to find an engineering works that some how has built a jig that clamps the DMF, so that its solid for machining. I think that perhaps the problem of resurfacing comes in when, the bottom part (the ring gear) can be clamped but the front will wobble on the DMF springs if not fixed down somehow.
In any case they didn't tell me how they did it.

Here is is resurfaced, the DMF has some slight chipped damage that must have happened when the thrust bearing disintegrated, I hope the DMF won't suffer balancing problems.

Before resurface






After resurface






Chipped damage.






Here is a view under the car with gearbox removed.







Hope the weekend will run smoothly.

Cheers Zedd

PS, Anyone out there that can give me torque spec for DMF to crank bolts?
Dave_Retired.   
Thu Sep 20 2012, 12:57pm

Member No: #1
Joined: Aug 07 2006
Location: Northumberland
Zedd, it's possibly here in the ' Mechanics Guide' - Click Here - but it's a while since I looked though that.
1 User said Thank You to Dave_Retired. for this Post :
 Zedd (20 Sep 2012 : 13:15)
gmerry   
Fri Sep 21 2012, 04:40am
Member No: #11625
Joined: Nov 30 2009
Location: aberdeen
Hi Zedd, the bolts that hold the DMF to the crankshaft are not reuseable!!!!.

They are torqued up to an initial value and then a fixed angular displacement is applied, which will yield the bolts. (This is the same as most modern designs of cylinder heads) I got replacement bolts with the replacement Sachs DMF. I guess you will need to get them from Citroen. I'd look on the Sachs website for the torque instructions if you dont find them in the Mechanics Guide.

Regards
G
1 User said Thank You to gmerry for this Post :
 Zedd (21 Sep 2012 : 05:09)
Zedd   
Fri Sep 21 2012, 04:57am
Member No: #19214
Joined: Apr 11 2011
Location: Harties South Africa
Wow thanks for this, Gmerry, I could have made a mess, had I not read your reply.
gmerry   
Fri Sep 21 2012, 04:01pm
Member No: #11625
Joined: Nov 30 2009
Location: aberdeen
Hi Zedd, according to Mechanics Guide on page 121, the flywheel screws are pre-torqued to 30Nm then an additional 90 degrees (plus or minus 5 degrees). I did the angular stuff in stages, use a felt pen marker though.

Regards
G
evanwr   
Fri Sep 28 2012, 08:40pm
Member No: #14515
Joined: Jul 09 2010
Location: Australia
This was an excellent post, full of real info. I have a question as to the height of the car on stands required to get clearance when you drop the engine assembly. As you are removing bumper, front panel, structual member and radiator panel - am I right in thinking that clearance of the top of the engine and the bodywork is not an issue when you drag the engine out because it will pass through the gap created by the removal of the front bodywork etc.
This seems like a dopey question, however I have only ever removed engines out the top and the thought of dropping them fills me with apprehension
Regards EvanR
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