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C4GP Front heater/blower fan stopped working

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rafiki   
Mon May 12 2014, 02:43am
Member No: #17435
Joined: Jan 19 2011
Location: Beograd
Hello again

First, Thank you all for support and suggestions. I have been visiting this forum for a while (mostly as a reader), and find it as a best source of information concerning our beloved C4s.

Now, back to the business: on Friday afternoon I measured voltage levels on front blower assembly. Actually, front blower assembly consist from motor itself (with fan attached) and a control module (some electronics) attached to motor. Up to the control module comes two connectors (2 wire each): one large grey connector that supplies 12V constantly when engine is on; and small black one with variable voltage levels - these levels I found to be in line with settings on AirCon control panel next to the steering wheel (aircon switched off - 0V and slowly increasing voltage with increasing blower speed).

From control modules goes 2 wire "jumper" connector towards blower motor. This was also supplied with voltage, so I decided that fault lies somewhere in motor itself. When I plugin "jumper" connector to the motor with AirCon On, for a fraction of second I could hear humming noise coming from motor - to me it sounded like motor is trying to start.

Then I started with dismantling blower assembly from the rest. Assembly is hold in place with 4 screws - three of them easy accessible and fourth almost in-accessbile. I tried to remove them with 6mm socket (smallest I have), with no success - screws were smaller.

Then I borrowed 5mm socket from a friend, which again showed to be to small! So, further action was postponed to Saturday. After visit to hardware store and purchase of new set of sockets keys, I manage to remove blower assembly using 5.5mm socket.

In blower motor I found couple of dried leaves and small piece of wood branch about 10cm long and 2-3mm tick. Motor was easy to rotate by hand, sign that bearings were OK. Then I connected all wires back to free standing blower assembly and voila! - motor started to spin! Cleaned everything from dust and dirt, put it back again, and got my Air Con working as a charm

So, at the end of this adventure I'm left without proper conclusion. I have no clue why motor didn't worked before I took it down. Either bearing on motor was seized just a little (although I doubt it now) either that small piece of branch was blocking motor from starting - I don't see any other explanation.

After bringing AirCon back to life, yesterday I proceed with removing and completely drying floor carpet on passenger side. Due to water ingress, there was some amount of water below carpet, and lower, foamy side of carpet was soaked in water. To dry it I had to remove passenger seat, console between front seats, plastic trim below gear stick and part of trim above driver and passenger footwell. It took me some time to remove all of that, but putting all back was actually easier that I thought.

And to end this long post, I have to mention that I'm pretty disappointed with number of obvious designs faults on C4P. Whole story with water leak due to blocked drains is result of several design faults: first, large hole in bottom of windshield trim which allows small branches and leaves to enter drain; then rubber drain tube with flap - why flap is needed there? It does nothing except helps to create blockage.

Then, position of AirCon blower as a lowest part of AirCon system - if it's positioned above, no water or leaves, branches, etc... could enter it.

Here in Serbia we expect heavy rains in next few days, so I'll be able to test drains and potential leakage.

@rusky: I don't know if there is good reason to refit rubber drains back, but I don't have it on driver side for a year or longer. And now, after all this troubles, I won't put it back on passenger side too. I'm sure that without rubber part, blockage of drain is much less possible.

BTW, my car are Left Hand Drive (european) version - just to be clear about it.

BR

4 User said Thank You to rafiki for this Post :
 Kiwicake (12 May 2014 : 03:05) , Dave_Retired. (12 May 2014 : 04:56) , Barose (10 Jun 2014 : 15:59) , Access (21 Mar 2019 : 04:45)
Kiwicake   
Mon May 12 2014, 03:12am
Member No: #17370
Joined: Jan 16 2011
Location: Budapest
Hey Rafiki, this was a great post, you are one determined customer for sure. A pity you could not find out the exact cause of the trouble. My twopence would be that the 10 cm twig you mentioned may have been blocking the fan and when you dismantled the assembly it got dislodged and fell out with an innocent smile on its face
Great to hear your C4 is ok again!

KC
rafiki   
Mon May 12 2014, 04:22am
Member No: #17435
Joined: Jan 19 2011
Location: Beograd
@Kiwicake: thanks for feedback. I agree with you: probably cause of problem was branch stuck in the fan. I could have test it somewhow, but did'n get that idea on time.

Here are two photos of blower assembly - to get idea how it looks like:

Blower assembly bottom view: (click image to enlarge)

[shadowbox=http://c4owners.org/plugins/forum/attachment/17435/1399886176_17435_FT165007_blower_motor_details.jpg|::||]http://c4owners.org/plugins/forum/attachment/17435/1399886176_17435_FT165007_blower_motor_details_.jpg[/shadowbox]

[shadowbox=http://c4owners.org/plugins/forum/attachment/17435/1399886276_17435_FT165007_dsc_0147.jpg|::||]http://c4owners.org/plugins/forum/attachment/17435/1399886276_17435_FT165007_dsc_0147_.jpg[/shadowbox]

Blower assembly is located below glove box, to the right side.

BR
3 User said Thank You to rafiki for this Post :
 Dave_Retired. (12 May 2014 : 04:56) , Barose (10 Jun 2014 : 15:59) , alfredo1972 (05 May 2021 : 10:35)
rafiki   
Thu Jun 05 2014, 03:00am
Member No: #17435
Joined: Jan 19 2011
Location: Beograd
Well, I'm back
My happiness was short lived. For a week or two, heater blower was working fine, but no more. One day it just failed to start. After some play with climate control buttons, it started to work, but last couple of days I can not get it to work at all. And temperature here is starting to climb - today 27C is expected, sunny with no clouds...

I did some tests trying to find out what is wrong with blower.

First, blower motor is not seized - at least not completely. When I give it push by hand it will rotate for one and half rotation. Not sure if this is OK, but anyway I put some oil to lubricate it. When connected directly to 12V supply, it spins fine. I managed to connect it directly to constant 12V supply that comes into blower control module.

Then I turn attention to blower control module. It has 3 x 2 wire connectors. On the first one comes constant 12V (actually almost 14V when engine is on). On second (small one) comes variable voltage level (somewhere from 0 - 4V) - this one is in relation to the blower speed adjustment on climate control panel (two buttons with small and big fan picture).

Third connector is used to bring power from control module to the blower motor itself, and now is always on the same level as first one (almost 14V).

So everything looks fine, blower motor is getting 14V supply from control module, but won't start. And when connected directly (without control module), it starts on full speed.

My conclusion is that blower control module has failed. Although it gives 14V output, it may happen that due to malfunction he can not supply enough current to start motor. And it's strange that he always give 14V output to the motor - how then he can control blower speed?

What is unknown to me is why control module has failed at all? Is this random failure, or it is consequence of flooded blower motor? I can replace control module (when I find new one - this can be difficult task in Serbia), but I'm afraid that new one also can fail, if cause of failure is high current drawn by blower motor. This scenario is possible if motor is seized up to some level, so it needs more current to start and spin.

Now I plan to temporary connect blower motor directly to the constant 12V supply - until I find replacement control module. Thus anyone knows what current blower motor can draw? I'm afraid of overloading electrical installation, so want to be sure as much as possible.

Also, how much electrical resistance of blower motor should be? I've measured it by my very old instrument, and found it to be very low - no more than couple of Ohms. Is this OK?

BR
1 User said Thank You to rafiki for this Post :
 Barose (10 Jun 2014 : 15:59)
Kiwicake   
Thu Jun 05 2014, 03:12am
Member No: #17370
Joined: Jan 16 2011
Location: Budapest
Hey Rafiki,

unfortunately I cannot help, I am just saying I'm with you and wish you good luck.
Is contacting a Citroen garage with a trained electrician out of the question? He may have the necessary experience, tools and parts to solve your problem -- and it may not cost a fortune. You may ask for a quotation beforehand.

Zs
rafiki   
Thu Jun 05 2014, 03:49am
Member No: #17435
Joined: Jan 19 2011
Location: Beograd
Thanks Kiwicake,

Unfortunately, garages here are not very professional, and many of them lack experience for anything beyond most common faults. If it's something related to the electronics, usual answer is "French car have poor electrics"...

BTW, I located new blower control module. Probably will buy it, plug and pray that fault will not occur again. Otherwise...

BR
Dave_Retired.   
Thu Jun 05 2014, 09:01am

Member No: #1
Joined: Aug 07 2006
Location: Northumberland
rafiki wrote ...

Also, how much electrical resistance of blower motor should be? I've measured it by my very old instrument, and found it to be very low - no more than couple of Ohms. Is this OK?

Unfortunately the Technical docs available from Citroen do not give that kind of information.
Barose   
Tue Jun 10 2014, 04:12pm
Member No: #22350
Joined: Oct 10 2011
Location: UK
Thanks Rafiki for a great report. You have given me the courage to dig further into the same problem I have. Everything works except the front fan. I have studied the wiring diagrams and checked the relay. Was about to give up and take it to a mechanic but I will give it another shot. My fan looks similar to yours so I have attached a picture



rafiki   
Wed Jun 11 2014, 02:48am
Member No: #17435
Joined: Jan 19 2011
Location: Beograd
Hi Barose,

You have slightly different version of heater blower control module. I believe your's is made by Bosch (part no: 6441 W9), while mine is made by Denso (6441 CE). They should work in same manner, but can not be exchanged due to differences in shape and screws position.

Currently, I'm awaiting delivery of new control module. Haven't been able to source it locally, I ordered one over the internet from abroad. Imagine my pleasure of driving C4P with temperature soaring over 30C these days

In the mean time, I made a workaround by connecting 12V supply to the motor using 2 wires and switch. It works, but due to high current drawn by blower motor, wires becomes hot in 5 minutes (I use 2.5mm wires). So every couple of minutes I have to turn it off for a while, then on again...

Do you know exactly where relay is located? I tried to find it last weekend, but no success.

BR
Barose   
Wed Jun 11 2014, 04:37am
Member No: #22350
Joined: Oct 10 2011
Location: UK
The relay (I believe it is the one)is in the fuse box next to the battery. It is tucked in the forward most point when you slide the cover back. Mine is light green with G Cartier as the make. I am not totally sure, even though it is where the circuit layout says it is, because the power wire is white but at the blower it is orange. I removed my fan this morning and jumped 12 volts and it spins. Took off the control module and cleaned the alloy part as it was a little corroded. Incidentally the control module is dated 07/07/11 but the C4GP is 2008, so it was replaced at some time. The 4 screws work with a 7/32 socket.
Barose   
Wed Jun 11 2014, 05:21am
Member No: #22350
Joined: Oct 10 2011
Location: UK
Rafiki

Put it all back together and appears to be working well. All fan speeds are working too. The only thing I did of significance was to clean with a wire brush the corroded alloy surface of the control module. Maybe in 2 weeks it will be off again like yours.

I think your point about the fan needing sufficient current to spin up is a valid one. When I was trying to jumper the fan with a small 12 volt battery It would only work when I had really good contact on the battery terminals.

Many thanks to you for taking the time to detail your experience with this problem. It gave me the confidence to proceed.
rafiki   
Wed Jun 11 2014, 06:37am
Member No: #17435
Joined: Jan 19 2011
Location: Beograd
That's great! Hopefully you'll be more lucky than I was

My control module heat sink was also corroded up to some point. Probably I had water ingress earlier than was aware of it, and some water found its way up to the electronics despite isolation.

BR

rafiki   
Fri Jun 20 2014, 02:52pm
Member No: #17435
Joined: Jan 19 2011
Location: Beograd
Hi, here is update on my problem:
After 2 weeks, replacement module arrived. Being eager to test it, I just have it connected, without proper mounting - module was freely hanging on wires. Turned engine on, AC on, and everything worked.
After 5 - 10 minutes drive, blower control module become very hot, I could barely touch it. To avoid overheating or even fire, I turned AC off completely.
Once at home, I mounted it properly and tested. After couple of minutes of work on highest settings, wires that lead to motor are noticable warm. Control module also looks warm, but not to much. Not sure if this is expected, but cooling radiator on module is huge, indeed.
Friend of mine is having Berlingo MK2 with exactly the same blower assembly as my C4P, so I'll check how warm is module on Berlingo.
Module photos are attached. Part no:
PSA: 6441 CE or Denso DRS07001
BR



Keeny1975   
Sat Dec 27 2014, 11:48pm
Member No: #29532
Joined: Feb 26 2013
Location: Uk
So quick question.
What would happen if the trap wasn't reattached?
Surly leaving it off would be a good thing as it wouldn't clot any more it would simply flow freely out.
rafiki   
Mon Dec 29 2014, 02:56am
Member No: #17435
Joined: Jan 19 2011
Location: Beograd
I have both rubber drain tubes removed for a some time. A month ago, while fitting winter tyres, I removed plastic arch covering to check drainage hole. On left side it was completely blocked with dry leaves/mud combination, although rubber tube from that side was removed more than year ago. Right side was clear.
So, even after removing rubber ends, check drain holes once in a time - better safe than sorry, as I have learned myself

BR and happy holidays
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